<div dir="ltr">Hi everyone,<div><br></div><div><div><div>> I do not have a clear picture of what the downsides would be. Johannes</div><div>> always said that people on old macs are tied to an old java version</div><div>> and that we do not want to leave those users behind. It would be</div><div>> interesting to know how many people that actually would impact.</div></div><div><br></div></div><div>I compiled a Java/OS version spreadsheet a while back, which is relevant here:</div><div><br></div><div> <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkWOpXiooWpDdHhMZXFXVG9RaHhPelp2LVdfX1RMNHc&output=html">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkWOpXiooWpDdHhMZXFXVG9RaHhPelp2LVdfX1RMNHc&output=html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Furthermore, I researched this a couple of different times in recent months. The results are part of the ImageJ FAQ:<br></div></div><div><div><br></div><div> <a href="http://imagej.net/FAQ#Why_does_ImageJ_still_target_Java_6.3F">http://imagej.net/FAQ#Why_does_ImageJ_still_target_Java_6.3F</a></div><div><br></div><div>As of this writing, around 11% of OS X systems still run version 10.6 Snow Leopard or older.</div><div>* As of June 2014, it was ~19%.</div><div>* In December 2013, it was ~25%.</div><div><br></div><div>And OS X only has ~7% market share right now, meaning that the actual market share for 10.6 and older is only ~0.8%.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Of course, none of these statistics are ImageJ-specific. A somewhat higher percentage of ImageJ users use OS X: from the weblogs of <a href="http://sites.imagej.net">sites.imagej.net</a>, we know that it is about 10.6% of the traffic, but the logs don't tell us the version breakdown of OS X. (We would know for certain had the usage statistics not been kiboshed.)</div><div><br></div><div>So TL;DR: with some minimal assumptions, ~1.2% of ImageJ users still use Snow Leopard are earlier.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Curtis</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Curtis Rueden <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ctrueden@wisc.edu" target="_blank">ctrueden@wisc.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<span class=""><div><br></div><div>Mark Hiner wrote:</div><div><div>> my only hesitation towards agreeing with consensus here is that these</div><div>> particular mailing lists seem likely to be biased towards active</div><div>> developers (who I would expect to prefer newer Java versions).</div></div><div><br></div></span><div>I agree. While personally I would love to move to Java 7 or even Java 8, and even if we all support that here, we must then ask on the main ImageJ mailing list to get feedback from all users first.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Curtis</div><div><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Mark Hiner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hiner@wisc.edu" target="_blank">hiner@wisc.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Jay,<span><br>>Can anyone else confirm this experience?<br></span></div>Yep, Yosemite dropped Java 6. Definitely an annoying extra barrier for developers. But there's a <a href="http://imagej.net/Frequently_Asked_Questions#How_do_I_set_up_Java_6_on_OS_X.3F" target="_blank">FAQ entry</a> now!<br><br></div>Michael,<span><br>
>When replying to a post like this, is it the done thing to reply to the
list in general or should I be replying just to the original poster?<br></span></div>You did the right thing - reply to the whole list. That way there is a complete record of any discussion-especially important on a general topic like this. Personally, if I ever get a private mail in response to something, I cc the list in my reply (see also: <a href="http://imagej.net/Philosophy#Open_source" target="_blank">http://imagej.net/Philosophy#Open_source</a>)<br><br></div><div>Out of curiosity, how do people feel about establishing set guidelines for when to advance Java versions (e.g. if it's 18 months past the end-of-life release and under 2% of the users would be affected, just upgrade)? There will certainly be times when this question will come up again... and my only hesitation towards agreeing with consensus here is that these particular mailing lists seem likely to be biased towards active developers (who I would expect to prefer newer Java versions).<br><br></div><div>Best,<br>Mark<br><br>P.S. Thanks for starting this thread Tobias!<br></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Lee Kamentsky <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:leek@broadinstitute.org" target="_blank">leek@broadinstitute.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">For CelllProfiler, there's some packaging work that would need to be done (we bundle the JRE with the Windows version and the Centos 6 RPM has Java 6 as a dependency). We rely on the system Java for the Mac presently and I don't have a clear idea of what range of Java 7 support to expect on our user's Macs.<div><br></div><div>It certainly seems like there is a lot of pressure to move to Java 7, so my vote would be to move to Java 7, even considering the above.</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Tobias Pietzsch <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pietzsch@mpi-cbg.de" target="_blank">pietzsch@mpi-cbg.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi all,<br>
<br>
what is everyones opinion on moving the IJ2/Fiji stack to a new version of Java, i.e., Java 7.<br>
Java 7 has been around for more than 3 years now. The end-of-life final public release of Java 6 was more than 1.5 years ago.<br>
<br>
Benefits I see are the following:<br>
<br>
* We could use the “new" Java 7 libraries. For example the Fork/Join framework would come handy in defining multi-threading interfaces in scijava-common (to be used in imagej-ops for example). Or the NIO2 stuff (java.nio.file)<br>
<br>
* We would benefit from improvements of type inference for generics in the compiler. No more jumping through hoops to fix “errors” in code that should compile with Java 6 but doesn’t. (Plus we could use the diamond operator to shorten generics instantiations.)<br>
<br>
* We could use third-party libraries that only support Java 7. For example I’m using Jetty in a project that can therefore not be part of Fiji currently. (This mail was more or less triggered by me looking into <a href="http://ojalgo.org" target="_blank">http://ojalgo.org</a> who maybe went a bit over the top and already abandoned Java 7 for Java 8). I think it is only a matter of time until we will have a problem with third-party libraries that we already use abandoning Java 6.<br>
<br>
<br>
I do not have a clear picture of what the downsides would be. Johannes always said that people on old macs are tied to an old java version and that we do not want to leave those users behind. It would be interesting to know how many people that actually would impact.<br>
<br>
<br>
What do you think?<br>
<br>
best regards,<br>
Tobias<br>
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